You Have to Learn to Follow First: How Humility, Mentorship, and Proximity Changed Everything (Part 3 of 7)

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (00:00)
one thing I really want to share with people is learning how to serve and to lead ⁓ is very important. And in order to do that, you've got to learn to follow first. ⁓ And I've been very fortunate in my career. I was thinking about

Ralph Owens (00:07)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (00:17)
When I interviewed here with the Mavericks, St. Marshall, who's legendary in this industry, ⁓ the first woman CEO, first Black woman ⁓ CEO of a major sports franchise, ⁓ interviewed me.

Ralph Owens (00:37)
Welcome to Leadership Sovereignty, the podcast. What does it really mean to lead? Philip McKibben shares how following with humility, serving with boldness and leading with faith transformed his life. From the depths of a submarine crisis to the C-suite, here lessons in leadership, social growth and divine timing. This episode is rich with real talk and real impact. Enjoy the show.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (01:22)
People find it hard to believe that I'm an introvert and that it was not that long ago that, my God, I was terrible. I remember one of my mentors, ⁓ I took a job at Comcast Entertainment Group and I had a customer who was a very tough customer.

And we had a meeting with this particular woman and my team knew her. They had dealt with her before. So they knew this meeting was going to go bad, but they didn't tell me. So we have a meeting and 20 minutes in, she just says, stop, stop. I'm tired of hearing this. I don't want to hear none of this crap anymore. You guys in technology, you suck and you got to do better. And I'm not dealing with you. Okay. Now I'm looking at my team.

Ralph Owens (01:57)
You

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (02:16)
And they're all kind of snickering because they were like, yeah, we knew this was going to happen. So I decided, okay, you're not going to react. You're going to listen. You're going to receive the feedback. And then I said to this particular woman, her name is Wendy On, and people that know her know she's a force to be reckoned with. I say, Wendy, ⁓ I'm embarrassed that we have not met your needs.

Ralph Owens (02:21)
Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (02:46)
And I asked you to give me one month to really look into this, into my organization. And I want to come back to you with ways that we can improve. And I want to show you that we're going to meet your needs. And she said, fine, I'll give you one month. And then she left and I met with my team and I was like, why didn't y'all tell me? And they were like, well, we figured you were going to fail. So we were just going to let you fail.

Ralph Owens (03:15)
Wow.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (03:15)
And I was like, okay, so I told them that we as a group are going to change our focus. We're going to spend the time to learn our mission. We're going to spend the time to jointly create a vision. We're going to identify all the products and services that we're going to provide. I said, I'm going to go and meet with every one of our customers.

Terry Baylor (03:20)
Wow.

Ralph Owens (03:40)
Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (03:44)
and I'm going to have the tough conversation and I'm just going to listen. And I went and did that. And then one month later, I contacted Wendy. She said, come to New York. I want to see you. And I went to New York and I laid it all out for her. And she says, OK, I'm going to give you an opportunity, but there's some changes you need to make. And I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, first off, I need you to start coming to social functions.

Ralph Owens (03:44)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ha ha. Yep.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (04:13)
And we as technologists, look,

I was the biggest wallflower there was. I was a dude in high school. I was the jock nerd. During football season, no problem with dates. Football season ended, could not get a date to save my life because I was a nerd. And I would go to dances and I stayed on the wall. I could dance, but I would dance at home or dance in front of my family, but was afraid to do it in public.

Ralph Owens (04:26)
Mm-hmm.

You

Mm. Right.

Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (04:42)
⁓

And Wendy called me out and she said, do you even know how to drink? And I'm like, what do mean I don't drink? And she's like, dude, you're going to have to learn how to drink. And she invited me to functions and she actually started teaching me how to socially drink. Like she even said, okay, you don't have to drink alcohol because you don't want that, but I want you to go get a cranberry juice and you need to hold onto that drink the whole.

night and you just barely sip and you need to learn how to small talk. And she said, just open your mouth, be yourself. And she started inviting me to functions where I was around a lot of C-suite people. And that's not a normal thing for most folks. ⁓ But Wendy was such a force that she was enjoyable to be around. But look, I'm going tell you how this woman was. She used to...

Ralph Owens (05:26)
Yes.

Terry Baylor (05:30)
Sure, sure, sure, sure.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (05:41)
and say, need you to come to New York. And I would come to meet with her and she'd be like, come with me, we're going somewhere. And I remember one time she took me to Toys R Us for lunch and she went shopping for toys for her kids while I held all the toys. But see, that was very valuable because she was teaching me how to follow, how to follow a leader and to do it humbly.

Ralph Owens (05:58)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (06:09)
And then the time when I knew that I finally had arrived was she called me and she said, I need you to come with me. I need you to meet with me. I've got this appointment. So you need to come. So I'm walking with her. She turns down this alley in New York City and she goes into this place and is her hair salon. And she went and got her hair done while I sat and took notes of everything she wanted to talk about.

Ralph Owens (06:29)
Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (06:38)
That was such a humbling experience because she revealed to me what we needed for ad sales, the changes we needed to make, the systems we needed to install, the things we needed to do. And she said, the thing that impressed me about you was that you were humble enough to go without question, do what I needed you to do. And she said, you dealt with it like a champ. You sat there. I was doing, taking notes.

Ralph Owens (07:08)
Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (07:08)
I pitched

different ideas to her while I watched her get her do done that looked spectacular. I'm not going to share that she had an afro at one point, but that woman has been ⁓ key in my development. And ⁓ it just so happens that her late husband who used to be the CIO of Warner Brothers.

Ralph Owens (07:20)
you

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (07:35)
both of them took me under their wings and they started teaching me how to be an executive, teaching me to open my mouth, teaching me to feel comfortable in front of people. ⁓ And I got to give it up to Brandon Kehoe, Brandon Kehoe, who was just an unbelievable leader. And brother, I miss you every day and I know your family misses you. But Wendy, ⁓ one of those key people in your life that can change everything.

Ralph Owens (07:45)
Yes. Yes.

Terry Baylor (08:03)
Sure. Awesome.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (08:04)
and she was

one. So I hope I answered your question.

Ralph Owens (08:08)
Yeah, yeah, no, this is so Richmond. I'm digging so many nuggets. you gotta expound a little bit more on the stepping out of being, ⁓ you know, exclusive and being social, right? I talk about that all the time. like, I like to say in this day, the value of human connection trumps any credentials.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (08:23)
Mmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Terry Baylor (08:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ralph Owens (08:35)
Right. Your ability

to connect with people and you have to be social to do that, which we as technology people are typically not that by nature.

Terry Baylor (08:39)
Right.

Yeah.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (08:43)
We are anti-social.

Terry Baylor (08:44)
Social currency. That's social currency, man. We got to get that currency. And I'm going tell you right here, Phil, that cranberry play, man. Hey, I go to it all the time. That's my play. Hey, I've stepped it up a little bit. Can you throw a lime in there, please?

Ralph Owens (08:54)
Yeah.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (09:00)
Yeah, there

Ralph Owens (09:00)
Hehehehehe

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (09:01)
you go.

you're official. You're the man. Oh, no, You know, unfortunately, if we don't grow up in environments where, take for example, if our parents didn't work in technology or were in these higher positions, a lot of times we're not gonna learn. We're not gonna know. So especially being a person of color,

or a person of ⁓ a different gender or sexual orientation, a lot of times you're on the out, you know? And one of the biggest things that we have to learn is to become comfortable with being uncomfortable. I don't know how many times I'm the only person in that room that looks like me, or I've been in situations where

Ralph Owens (09:50)
Yes.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Terry Baylor (09:55)
Yep. Yep.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (10:00)
you see these group of people talking and nobody's talking to you. And I've had to learn how to force myself to go into a room where I don't know anybody and to go up to people and speak to them. And I've learned the importance of humor, the importance of saying little things that get people's attention, being able to...

Ralph Owens (10:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (10:28)
learn to laugh at yourself ⁓ and not take yourself too serious is important. And I will say that, ⁓ you know, for me, and one thing I really want to share with people is learning how to serve and to lead ⁓ is very important. And in order to do that, you've got to learn to follow first. ⁓ And I've been very fortunate in my career. I was thinking about

Ralph Owens (10:30)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

Hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (10:59)
When I interviewed here with the Mavericks, St. Marshall, who's legendary in this industry, ⁓ the first woman CEO, first Black woman ⁓ CEO of a major sports franchise, ⁓ interviewed me. And I still remember ⁓ when I walked in, she said, this interview is going to be the quickest interview you've had.

and it will either go very well or you're gonna crash and burn. And I'm only gonna ask you one question. And, you know, years ago, I would have crumbled at that because I would have been intimidated by it. But now over time, you learn to just accept those moments and to open your mouth and you learn how to breathe and pause. And she said, I've got one question for you. And I said, well, what is it? She said,

Tell me your leadership style and philosophy. And at the time I paused and I said, well, do you mind if I tell you a story? She's like, sure. And I proceeded to tell her a story about being a submariner in the US Navy where many years ago I was aboard ⁓ the fast attack submarine in USS Dallas. It's so ironic how that goes.

Terry Baylor (11:59)
Hmm.

Ralph Owens (12:26)
You

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (12:27)
and, I was put in charge of damage control. and what that means is if something happens, ⁓ on the sub, ⁓ you're the officer and leader that's going to lead that team to go deal with the problem. So we were down in the Caribbean. We were doing prospective commanding officer drills. ⁓ we had unfortunately engaged the Sylvia submarine. ⁓

that thought we were being aggressive. We weren't, but they thought that. And they decided to shoot their torpedoes at us. And I would tell you that there's no greater fear than being in that situation because aboard the Dallas, our captain was extraordinary and we drilled and we trained and we trained. So you think you're prepared for that moment, but in reality, you're not until you really face it.

And obviously they missed because that's why I'm here, but we didn't miss. And when I had to assemble the team, we went to the galley. I had 20 men down there looking at me. And my orders were to take those men, go into the space that was damaged because we had a breach in the hull.

And what that means is we had a small crack in the outer shell of the sub. And I'm sure you could imagine, and Ralph, I know you're a military guy. So when that crack happened, water starts rushing in. And when you're on a sub, you're your own fire department, your own police department, you're everything. It's up to you for the sub to survive. So I'm there.

Ralph Owens (14:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (14:21)
And these 20 souls are looking at me and they're all scared. And I'm going out of my mind. I'm thinking, my God, I'm going to die. My family's not going to know what happened because the U.S. Navy is probably not going to say what happened. You know, I'm just going to be missing at sea. And all I could think about was I haven't even had my children yet. I haven't even gotten married. I haven't experienced life yet.

Ralph Owens (14:39)
Bye. Bye.

Mm.

Terry Baylor (14:47)
Hmm.

Ralph Owens (14:50)
Mm.

Terry Baylor (14:51)
Hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (14:51)
And

all I could do was pray because I was so scared. And I prayed and I said, Father God, if this be my last day on earth, at least show me the faces of my children. And I got caught up into a vision. And ⁓ God showed me my children as adults. And he showed me my children's children. And I went.

Ralph Owens (15:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Terry Baylor (15:15)
Mm.

Ralph Owens (15:18)
Mm.

Terry Baylor (15:19)
Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (15:20)
from total fear to total faith. That fear went away. And I looked at those men and I said, I don't know what you believe in. I'm not here to proselytize to you, but I'm gonna tell you that there are no atheists and foxholes. So whatever you believe in, you know, I'm gonna pray. I think we should all pray and then we're gonna get after it. And we ended up all holding hands. We prayed.

Ralph Owens (15:41)
All

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (15:50)
And I said, men, let's go. So we got to the space and I decided, how in the world can you ask these men to go down there if you're not willing to do it yourself? So I climbed down into the space. And when I got down to the space, my ⁓ feet hit the pavement and the water was at my knees. And I told them, we have one minute to seal this hole and get out. And the other men climbed down the ladder. ⁓

Ralph Owens (16:03)
That's right.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (16:20)
At 30 seconds, the water was at my waist and that water was cold. At 45 seconds, the water was out here just below my chin and I stopped my stopwatch and I commanded everyone, get out, get out, get out, get out now. And everybody climbed out and I was the last person. And by then the water was above my head and I'm trying to tread water.

Ralph Owens (16:25)
Mmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (16:48)
And all I could do was just lift my hand up. And those men pulled me out. And when they pulled me out, we sealed the hole. We looked at one another, and then we fell back and started doing snow angels. I do not know why we did that, but we did. And we're yelling, Amen. it was the greatest moment. And then the captain came over the 1MC and said,

Ralph Owens (16:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Terry Baylor (16:54)
Mm.

Ralph Owens (17:03)
Yeah.

Terry Baylor (17:07)
⁓ the happy dance, the happy dance, man.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (17:16)
Mr. McKibbins, meet me in my state room right now. And, you know, everybody's like, you know, and I go to his state room and he says, Mr. McKibbins, what the hell were you thinking about? Do you know we spent $2 million training you as an officer and we can't lose you. You send the men there, you don't go into space yourself. And I looked at him and I said, sir, and I'll do respect.

How can you send a man to his imminent death if you're not willing to put your life on the line for him? And I said, I needed to go down in that space so that they could have faith. And that's why I did it. And he's like, hmm, okay, don't do it again. And I said, in all due respect, sir, if I'm faced with the same situation, I'm gonna do it again because they had to believe.

Ralph Owens (17:47)
Yes.

Yeah.

Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (18:10)
And

he thought about it. said, well, we'll debate that at dinner tonight. So we all sat and talked about it as. ⁓

Ralph Owens (18:14)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Terry Baylor (18:15)
Amazing. That is life changing, man. That

is, I am, wow.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (18:22)
But I shared this story with Cint. Cint teared up and she said, when can you start? And I was like, well, when do you need me? She's like, Monday. I'm like, oh my God, that could be a problem because I'm taking my wife on vacation, but I'll be there. And I left, showed up in Dallas and that was almost 17 months ago. And last week,

Ralph Owens (18:30)
Wow. ⁓

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (18:51)
I was just finally getting my furniture from California because I was willing to take the call and to jump and to provide a service immediately.

Terry Baylor (19:04)
So, so Phil, what did that do for your leadership, man? I mean, that is such, I don't, I mean, most of us will never, ever, ever come to any crossroads like that. Right? What did that do for you as a leader? Um, just internally what I, I'm sure even today there's, there's so many times where you lean on that experience. What, exactly does, what, what did it do?

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (19:20)
Mmm.

Terry, I'll tell you this. ⁓ You talking about gaining confidence and faith that I could lead. And many years ago, I was working at DirecTV and I was put in charge of a Five Nines project and things weren't going well. And I'm panicking and freaking out. And I had a former Air Force officer who was the COO pull me in his office.

Ralph Owens (19:40)
Mm. Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (20:01)
And he asked me, he said, what was the worst day of your life? And then I told him about the story. And then he said, ⁓ during that time, many people could die, right? I said, yeah. And then he said, in the military, I'm sure you've lost shipmates. And I said, yes, I have. ⁓ And he said, Phil, let's talk about this project. Did anybody die today? And I was like, no. And he's like,

Ralph Owens (20:25)
Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (20:31)
Did this happen? Did that happen? I was like, no. So he said, Phil, always remember it's only TV. You're going to go home today. So you need to keep your composure. Those people are going to look to you. And you lead with confidence and faith and be willing to accept that you're going to have setbacks, but you keep going. And that shaped me. And it really made me think about

what I shared with you. ⁓ And it made me think about, you know what? ⁓ You're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna fail. The important thing is that you learn from it ⁓ and that you get better every day and that you help other people. ⁓ But see, I'm a person that God has blessed me immensely. I'm here because of faith. I'm here because of understanding that I think of fear as an acronym.

Ralph Owens (21:26)
Hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (21:30)
meaning fear to me is false evidence of appearing real. Fear is stifling. Fear creates doubt. Fear creates self-talk. And I'll tell you that a lot of us don't make it to higher levels because we allow that self-talk. We allow our peers to talk us out of doing stuff. We think it's not gonna be cool to be the leader. We think...

Ralph Owens (21:42)
Mmm.

Terry Baylor (21:43)
Mmm.

Ralph Owens (21:52)
Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (21:58)
⁓ no, I just want to hide and be a member of the pack. Well, I've been one of those people that have not been afraid to step out on faith and to lead ⁓ with boldness and confidence. I've not been afraid to speak truth, to be a person that's willing to give whatever it takes to be successful. So that may mean...

Ralph Owens (22:17)
Yes.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (22:26)
You know, like we just had the the NBA draft the last two nights ⁓ and I was here with my team until ⁓ the draft ended. It would have been easy for me to go. Okay guys, you got it. I'll see y'all later. Call me if there's a problem. All right, but that's not leadership. Leadership is being right there in the trenches and checking in with them and going, what do you need and how are you doing and what can I do to support you? A true leader.

Ralph Owens (22:44)
Bye.

Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (22:55)
is really about serving others, supporting other people. It's easy to bark orders. It's tougher to follow orders. And it's tougher to humble yourself. ⁓ And I've just been one of those people that ⁓ I'm going to make sure that, like I said, when I went down in that space, I told the men, we're going down there. We're going to be out in one minute.

and we're gonna do this without the loss of one. No one's gonna die on my watch today, including me. ⁓ And I try to bring that to work every day. And it's challenging. You face situations, you face business leaders that don't understand what you do, they don't get what you do. All they know is you spend money and sometimes they get jealous of that and resentful and...

And sometimes they get caught up into, are you getting attention over me? And you have to learn, look, we don't have time for that. ⁓ I'm not gonna get caught up into that. ⁓ I'm gonna focus on just being the best servant leader that I can. look, I've been a person of faith my entire life. And I feel the need to share a couple more stories if we have the time.

Ralph Owens (23:59)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Bye.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Terry Baylor (24:22)
Yes, sir. Yes,

sir.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (24:23)
You know, I've been with my wife for 44 years and ⁓ it is a tremendous blessing. And ⁓ I remember being in 11th grade and being frustrated that I could not get dates to save my life. And I went to my pastor and I said, you know, ⁓ Pastor Payne said, I can't seem to be able to get a date. What do I do?

Ralph Owens (24:27)
Mm-hmm. It is.

Terry Baylor (24:27)
What a blessing.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (24:51)
And my pastor said, you need to start believing for a mate. Now, I'm 16 years old and I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to believe for a mate. at the time I was like, okay, I'm just going to trust and do it. So I started praying for a mate. And of course nothing really changed. And I remember, you know, in my conversation with God,

Ralph Owens (25:00)
You

Hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (25:20)
because prayer is just conversation with God. I'm like, well, Father God, if you could just show me a sign. And now I'm embarrassed to say it because he shows us signs all the time. ⁓ And I'm dreaming one night and just having a regular dream. And then I get this cut in of this vision where I see myself walking down the street and I see this woman.

and a multicolored dress walking towards me. All right, dream ends. That division ends, I go back to my regular dream. Next year, I'm now senior. ⁓ I win a track scholarship to Virginia Tech. So I'm going to VOTech, Blacksburg. ⁓ And one of the elders of my church approaches me and says, ⁓

I want you to consider Fisk University. It is the first HBCU. And she said, you need to go there. I went there, it's a great school. And then she said, I've been praying over you and God has revealed to me that you're gonna meet your mate in Nashville, Tennessee. And I was like, well, but I have a scholarship. And she just kept on and kept on. And finally I said, okay, fine, I'll take the visit. So I go on the visit.

and just blown away, love Fisk. I'm like, man, this is gonna be great. I come home, I go to my parents and I said, I've decided not to take the athletic scholarship. I wanna go to Fisk and I'm gonna need your support. My parents said, sure, we'll support you. But I didn't know what that sure meant. I didn't think through, dude, you're walking away from money, all right.

Terry Baylor (27:11)
Whatever, yeah.

Ralph Owens (27:12)
Yeah.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (27:13)
and they don't have it, but they said, okay, you can go. I didn't know that they weren't going to help me and I was going to truly be on my own. Okay. I decided to go to Fisk ⁓ and then I decide, okay, well, you're going to play football too. So I report to football camp and we're practicing and everything. And then the coach decided one day to give us a day off and I'm trying to decide what am I going to do with myself?

So I said, okay, I'm just gonna go downtown. I'd never been downtown Nashville. So I go downtown and I'm on the street and I'm looking around and I'm going, man, why do I feel like I've been here before? This looks familiar. I'm walking down the street on Broadway, famous street in Nashville, and I look up and here is this woman in the multicolored dress walking towards me.

Ralph Owens (28:10)
Wow.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (28:10)
I

knew immediately I was like, you answer prayers, Father God. And I fell on my knees. I start praising God. All right. And I'm just like, Father God, thank you. Here's the problem. I did not stop to get her name or number or anything. She walks by me. When I come to, I'm like, you idiot. You didn't stop her. I mean, she smelled. Everything in the dream was exactly like it was.

Terry Baylor (28:10)
Wow.

Ralph Owens (28:19)
Yeah.

Yeah

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (28:39)
And two months passed and Fesca is a small campus. So at the time we only had like 600 students and I had never seen her. And one of my teammates after a game, we had lost and said, I'm gonna take you to upper class ⁓ side. Cause we used have the women's side and the men's side. And he's like, I'm gonna take you to the upper class dorm so you can meet some women. Cause I gotta get you out of your funk. And he introduced me to all types of...

just incredibly beautiful sisters. And on our last visit, we end up at the RA's desk. And I happen to look and the RA is this woman that I saw. And I was so excited. And now I'm going through the self-talk and I'm like, okay, you got to this woman's attention. And she's looking at me and every word I say, she ignores

Ralph Owens (29:23)
Wow.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (29:36)
And I'm thinking, oh my God, this is so difficult. And so finally I say, you know, okay, let me see your hands. And this woman, the smart aleck she was, said, you wanna see my hand? She goes, see? You know, and I'm like, no, no, no, put your hand out. So she does. And I put my thumb in her hand and I said, I want you to grab my thumb. She does. And then I say, and she's gonna be mad that I'm sharing this story, but.

Ralph Owens (29:52)
Mm.

Terry Baylor (29:52)
Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (30:04)
I think it's gonna bless some people. So I'm gonna tell it like it is. I said, if I ever come to your room with rubbing alcohol and baby oil, will you give me a massage? Now this is pre-ditty baby oil, all right? This ain't no sexual thing, pre-ditty. All right, so she looks at me and laughs. And then she says, sure, I'll give you a massage.

Ralph Owens (30:07)
Alright.

Alright.

Terry Baylor (30:20)
We

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (30:33)
So I was like, bet, all right. It's now curfews, midnight. So I had to go back to my side and I said, okay, I'll see you later. Well, visitation started two o'clock the next day, so Sunday. I showed up at 1.58. I'm waiting to get in the women's, upper class women's dorm. I get in, I knock on the door and she's like, who is it? And I said, it's Phillip. She's like, who? And I said, Tony's brother. So she goes, ⁓

Ralph Owens (30:51)
You

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (31:02)
Tony's brother. So she opens the door. I show her baby oil, rubbing alcohol. She looks at me, she slams the door. And then I hear her running across the floor and she's talking to her girlfriend and she goes, my God, this fool is at my door with rubbing alcohol and baby oil and her good friend who's no longer with us.

Ralph Owens (31:24)
you

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (31:31)
said to her, you need to be a woman of your word. You promised him, so you need to do this. And she said, no, but I don't want to. She said, you should do it. So she comes back, she opens the door and I'm like, ⁓ okay. I walk in and I'm all confident. And then I'm trying to act cool. And I say, okay, where are we gonna do this? So she points to her bed and I said, can I go change? And she points to her bathroom. So I go in the bathroom, I take off.

my trousers, but I actually had on swim trunks. I put a towel around me. I rolled the towel down in the swim trunks and I showed plumber crack. All right. Cause I wanted her to think that I was butt naked. I come out, she sees me and she goes, my God. She puts her hands over her eyes. And then I show her my backside.

Ralph Owens (32:14)
Yeah.

Terry Baylor (32:18)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (32:29)
And then I said, well, okay, we're gonna do this here. She's like, yeah. So I opened the tap. She's only looking at my back and she's covering her face. And she's like, what have I done? This fool is in my room naked. I turn around and I see her like peek like this. And she sees a swim trunks. She busts up laughing. And then I lay down and then she says to me, it's anybody.

Ralph Owens (32:35)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (32:58)
on this campus hears that I did this for you, I will never speak to you again. So she gives me the massage and we talked. All we did was talk, we watched TV and it was the most engaging conversation I'd ever had. And I look up and I realize it's 5.55 and we had our team meeting at six o'clock. And I jump up and I'm like, I'm gonna be late.

Ralph Owens (33:01)
You

Terry Baylor (33:21)
Hmm

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (33:24)
And I thank her and she said, remember what I said. I don't want to hear a word about this. I take off sprinting. I run all the way across campus. I get to the gym, get in my seat. My teammates are freaking out because I was the dude that never missed curfew, was always 10 minutes early. And I'm the last one showing up now. So they're thinking something happened to me. And when I come in, I got this gigantic smile on my face.

Ralph Owens (33:42)
Mm. Mm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (33:52)
And the guy who took me over to the upper class woman's dorm looks at me and he says, man, you must have got some. And I was like, why would you think that? I'm like, dude, I just had a great day. That's all I'm gonna say. And ⁓ I go see her the next day and we talk. And then I see her every day. And then we decided to go to the steps of Meharry. Now it's Wednesday.

Ralph Owens (34:01)
you

Yeah. ⁓

Terry Baylor (34:05)
All

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (34:20)
and we stayed up all night and talked. And I had never had a conversation with someone like that before. And by Friday, I go see her and she says, let's walk on the yard together. And there's a spot of Fisk in front of Jubilee Hall that at the time was like a little Lover's Lane area. And you only walked in that area if you were dating someone. And we were holding hands.

Ralph Owens (34:27)
Mm.

Terry Baylor (34:27)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (34:50)
And that's when we revealed to the world that this beautiful woman decided to go with a freshman and she was a junior. So you could imagine that her picking a freshman didn't help her rep ⁓ But that is the epitome of life and faith. By asking God, by believing.

Ralph Owens (34:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Terry Baylor (34:59)
Yeah.

Wow, that's amazing.

Phillip Gregory McKibbins (35:15)
And then 44 years later, I'm still with this woman. I'm excited to be with her. And even when I've done knucklehead things and done things that I should have done, she's stuck in there with me and she is a vital part of my life. And I'm so blessed to be in her life. I'm blessed that she bore my children. I'm blessed that we've been through the ups and downs. I'm blessed

Ralph Owens (35:22)
beautiful.

Mm. Mm-hmm.