Lead Your Leader: How to Master Leading Up and Build Influence That Gets You Promoted

Lawrence Scott:00:00

Humility requires awareness, but awareness is not arrogance. The first thing that I would suggest is to always remember that giants are just giants. They're they're not gods.

Terry Baylor:00:33

Lawrence, let me ask you this. The person who is in that role of being influenced, what are some tools and and and methodologies and points of awareness that they can exercise or some kind of checklist or anything to help evaluate what type of leader is this? Because, again, we're in vulnerable situations where we're trying to navigate, and I'm a say this, right, your dad would tell me this all the time. He said, your great grandfather would say this, you gotta take the meat and throw away the bones.

Ralph Owens:01:11

Right, right.

Terry Baylor:01:12

How do we do that in a situation like that? You know, what are some methodologies now that you've been there? Because again, the environments that we came out of, although they were very regimented, I'll say, they meant well. The idea wasn't to tear you down to leave you down. Was to

Ralph Owens:01:31

That's right.

Terry Baylor:01:32

Try to build you, you know, get some calluses on your hands, so to speak.

Lawrence Scott:01:36

Yep.

Terry Baylor:01:36

Ultimately to make you stronger. But in this scenario, right, it's feeling like the same thing because it's challenging challenging challenging but there's never a, hey, I see you, I see it, it's coming. You're doing better. So how do you how do you answer that?

Lawrence Scott:01:52

Yeah. So the first thing that I would suggest is to always remember and bring to the forefront of your mind that giants are just giants. They're they're not gods. That's the first thing. Remember that.

Lawrence Scott:02:07

Right? Giants are just giants. They might be big. They might be important. Right?

Lawrence Scott:02:12

But at the end of the day, they're still human. Right? There's there's there's no extra or supernatural thing that they have outside of the fact that they're just bigger. Right? I think that's important because sometimes we look at giants or important people, people of influence as if they have something that we don't.

Lawrence Scott:02:35

And it doesn't mean that we don't honor or reverence or just, like, have respect for them and for the work that they've done and for the positions that they've attained. But it is important to remember that they're fallible. I know for me, I believe in God. And the way that I might say something to God in prayer or like receive something from God is different than I would from a human being. I don't assume.

Lawrence Scott:03:05

I might not agree with everything, but I don't like, when it comes to God, I assume even if I disagree that I'm wrong and God's right. Not not so.

Terry Baylor:03:19

With the giant. With

Lawrence Scott:03:21

the with the giant. Right? Yeah. Because giants fall. They make mistakes.

Lawrence Scott:03:25

They right? So it but I think that's the first part. But then I think the second part too is to remember that there's a giant in you. I think it's important for people to recognize their own sense of significance and importance, not self inflation, but self importance. Right?

Lawrence Scott:03:41

It's like, I don't I don't I don't elevate myself higher than I should do that. Right? I don't assume that I have something that I don't have. And I have to work at my own awareness. It's funny.

Lawrence Scott:03:54

I always tell people that humility actually requires awareness. That's good. That is good. Because how could I be humble if I wasn't first aware of myself?

Ralph Owens:04:06

Yes. Yes.

Lawrence Scott:04:08

At what level I'm at in life.

Ralph Owens:04:09

That's right. That's right.

Terry Baylor:04:10

The cat was digging right there a little bit.

Lawrence Scott:04:13

And so humility requires awareness. But awareness is not arrogance.

Ralph Owens:04:20

Correct. Yes. Right.

Lawrence Scott:04:22

Yes. So because I'm aware of myself, it does not mean that I'm arrogant. I'm just aware. Right? It's it's the difference between the guy who's been a carpenter for forty five years who charges you $10,000 to carve a table.

Lawrence Scott:04:40

And the one who's been a carpenter for forty five days who charges you a 100 to carve the same table. You're looking at the one who's charging you all of this money saying, you must be out of your mind. You you're arrogant. You you're prideful. Like, why do you think that it's worth it?

Lawrence Scott:04:59

And he's like, hey, listen. I'm aware that the amount of craftsmanship that I'm bringing, the amount of experience that I'm bringing, it's worth what I'm charging. I'm I'm aware of my value. Right?

Ralph Owens:05:13

That's right. That's right.

Lawrence Scott:05:13

Now watch this. The one who's been the carpenter for forty five days is also aware. That's why he's only charging you a 100 He's like, I'm not at that level yet. Remain faithful to the craft and continue to get better. Both gentlemen are aware.

Lawrence Scott:05:29

One is not humble because he charges you a $100, and the other one is not humble or arrogant because he charges you 10,000. Right? They're both aware. Awareness sits between understanding your value, but not considering yourself to be above anyone else in terms of internal human value because I'm aware of my value. Right?

Lawrence Scott:05:53

That's that's that's sitting at that center. So you have to be aware of yourself. Now, I say this to everyone who's in those positions of influence and everyone who's in positions of being influenced. Because the truth of the matter is we're always both. We're always both.

Lawrence Scott:06:09

Even if you are the the janitorial service provider at a hotel, you are in a position where you are both influencing and being influenced. And it's important that you recognize that you're always sitting in those seats, both at the same time. The moment that you believe that you're beyond being influenced, that's when you've stepped into arrogance. Mhmm. So you have to remain aware.

Lawrence Scott:06:34

Right? So awareness is required for humility, but awareness is not arrogance. I would I would tell people to know that. And the reason that I would say them tell them to know that is because when you collide those two things, though, like put them at the forefront of your mind in these interactions. Remember, this might be a giant, but this giant is not God.

Lawrence Scott:06:55

And there's also a giant in me. When you go into those when you go into those situations in those conversations, it helps increase discernment a bit to say, hey, there might be certain things that they tell me that are right, but there might be some other things that I have to filter through their own bias or limitations. Because there might be some things that they might be very knowledgeable about in their space, but maybe their exposure is limited. And this is and this is huge that this is something that I've seen with a lot of leaders who've been in their space for a very long time. The world around them is changing and they are ignorant of it.

Lawrence Scott:07:32

Yes. They've not been exposed to it. What ends up happening is you get you get so focused into your space that you don't recognize the way that the world is is changing around you, and you fail to adapt. Not only do you fail to adapt technically, but you fail to adapt what one of my professors at Princeton called adaptively. Technical change is the is when things have to change.

Lawrence Scott:07:55

Adaptive changes when people do. And sometimes technical change requires adaptive change. Just because the button on the device shifted, it doesn't mean that someone's mind about the device didn't have to. Certain things feel like it's small, but it's really huge. So why do why do people stick with certain operating systems for their cell phones?

Lawrence Scott:08:17

Cause they don't wanna have to change the way their mind

Terry Baylor:08:20

That's right.

Lawrence Scott:08:20

Works about their device. That's That's So many people will tell you, hey, I wanna I wanna shift from this company's phone to this company's phone, but I don't wanna learn how to work a different type of phone.

Terry Baylor:08:31

Yeah.

Ralph Owens:08:32

Yep. It happens in the mind. Yeah.

Lawrence Scott:08:35

And the and this is and this is what's going on in leadership. That sometimes you have leaders who are resistant to the adaptive change that has to happen in their mind about not only what they're leading, but the way that they're leading the people to get it done. This is why it's important to remember that this is just a human being. Understanding this helps people who are in those positions where they're being influenced to actually become the influencer to their leader. Now this is this is this is concept where I I say, hey, you need to lead your leader on this.

Lawrence Scott:09:09

Now, how do you lead your leader? Maybe 2021, 2022, I released a leadership course called Leading in the Middle. And and the idea behind Leading in the Middle is, hey, I want you to recognize number one that you are a leader. But I want you to recognize that you're also being led, so you need to master two skills. You need to master leading up and you need to master leading down.

Lawrence Scott:09:35

Leading down is what most people think of. And down is not a term that I use to degrade anything, but it's just a term to to to understand Hierarchy. Positions of hierarchy Yeah. Subordinate and superior. So it's like, hey, listen.

Lawrence Scott:09:49

You need to lead your subordinates, but you also have a responsibility to lead your superior.

Terry Baylor:09:55

Well, you're toasting right now.

Lawrence Scott:09:56

Most of us don't know how to do that.

Ralph Owens:09:58

Yeah. That's a skill. Yeah.

Lawrence Scott:09:59

That's a skill. So so what is what is required to lead up? Because remember, they might be a giant, but they're not God. So they sometimes need some help with changing their mind about a thing. Maybe they need to see it first.

Lawrence Scott:10:16

Right? It might be the best best idea. But how do you present it to this particular person in a way that they can receive it? How do you how do you master and become excellent in the menial task and in the small task in such a way that when you bring them a big project idea, they trust they don't trust the idea, but they trust you. That's good.

Lawrence Scott:10:37

Oh, I remember I I even had this conversation with my brother. He was bringing me an idea about a communication system for the organization that we both work with. And he was basically saying, hey, we could put the whole we could put everybody on this. And I remember looking at it and I said, be honest with you. And he he had a whole presentation, Terry.

Lawrence Scott:10:56

He had a whole presentation. I said, hey, listen, man. I don't get it. If I'm honest with you, I don't understand it. I don't even know that this is gonna work.

Lawrence Scott:11:07

I trust you. Like, and I know that something like this, you've done the research on.

Terry Baylor:11:14

Right. I've seen

Lawrence Scott:11:15

you do that. So because of that, I told him, go for it. I didn't tell him to go for it because I understood the system. Didn't understand the technology. I told him go for it because I trusted him.

Lawrence Scott:11:27

And this is what we have to understand about leading up. Leading up is, hey, this person who's leading you is not perfect, and they're not above being influenced by you. What you have to do is put yourself in a position of trust and excellence, where they can not only just trust that you've done what you needed to do to make sure that whatever it is that you're presenting or whatever idea it is or whatever whatever task you wanna take on, like, hey, you like, let me do this new project. I wanna be on this new team. They need to be able to trust you.

Lawrence Scott:11:59

Not only do they need to be able to trust your character, but they need to be able to trust your competence. And and this is where excellence come comes in. I remember the best compliment that my father ever gave me. He said, Lawrence, whenever I give you something, you never bring it back to me the way I gave it to you. Always do it one better.

Lawrence Scott:12:19

That's the best compliment he ever gave me. Because Wow. To me, what he told me is I recognize excellence in you. I remember even this was last year, we had a birthday celebration for my father and it was a surprise. Did all of this stuff to bring folks in.

Lawrence Scott:12:36

And one of his guests that I had come in, I had had all the logistics planned out and everything. And he said something to me off to the side. He said, man, I can tell you have a high spirit of excellence. Like, and now I didn't have the most resources in the world for this. But he's like, man, you you you have a high sense of excellence.

Lawrence Scott:12:57

This this is great. Man, you you did the thing. Right? Now, when people can say that about you, they don't have a problem with, like, lending their ear to you. Starts it starts by mastering you, becoming more disciplined, having a spirit of excellence, becoming someone that they can trust.

Lawrence Scott:13:16

This is this is one of the things that we talk about in the course. Sometimes trust is as is something as simple as telling the truth because most people don't tell giants the truth.

Terry Baylor:13:26

Here's here's the deal. Ralph, I know you got a boatload of questions, man.

Ralph Owens:13:29

And I got so many numbers Come right

Terry Baylor:13:31

on. I I know you I got to because you I love Ralph asked these insightful questions. So come on, man. You gotta you gotta peel.

Ralph Owens:13:38

So so just just on that point alone. So something that I've learned along the way when it comes to leading up or managing up as Terry and I talk about it is you have to understand what motivates your leader because not every leader is the same. Going into a new role, one leader may be motivated by data. The other leader may be motivated by just simply results. You have to take the time to I don't wanna call it profile, but you need to understand what their triggers are so that you can meet them right where they wanna be met so that you can build that trust, you know, and you can build that you can build that information.

Ralph Owens:14:14

But before we get too far away, because I've been taking notes for a while now, I would be remiss if I didn't point out this this point about your story. And this is something important that I had to learn about my own life. So many people get caught up about what happens to them. Oh, this happened to me. Oh, this happened to me.

Ralph Owens:14:31

Oh, this happened to me. It is not what happens to you that's more important. What's most important is what you do after. You cannot stop some people who are gonna come into your life and do negative things. You just cannot stop that.

Ralph Owens:14:47

And in today's world, so many people get distraught and just all over the place about, oh, I can't believe this happened to me. Guess what? Jesus said in this life, you go out of trouble. Period. But he said, I'm with you.

Ralph Owens:15:04

So it's not what happens to you. It's it's what you do after that that really makes the difference. So I love the the example, Lawrence, because Terry and I have been in this situation. We've talked about it on the show where we had 100% complete trust, you know, for an individual leader. We were trying to do everything we could to make this individual successful, and then we found out that they had some ulterior motives against us, and they did something unfair to us.

Ralph Owens:15:29

We talk about the ride home, that ride that one ride home after

Terry Baylor:15:33

Don't forget that ride, bro.

Ralph Owens:15:34

Right? We we were completely devastated Yeah. About this one thing. But the one thing we had to overcome was what do we do now? How do we respond?

Ralph Owens:15:45

Because that was that's what makes you the leader. Even when you're being wronged, how do you respond? Are you gonna have integrity? Are you gonna keep moving forward or you're quit? Right?

Ralph Owens:15:57

Because these are the things that make you strong. So, you know, you can you can tell the story about what happened to you a 100 times and just keep ripping the band aid off or you could talk about, yeah, this may have happened to me but this is what I did to overcome Right? And then that builds confidence in other areas of your life. I'm sure after you got that confirmation from that, that psychology professor and you overcame that situation, that became a foundation that you can pull on for any other situation that comes your way.

Lawrence Scott:16:26

For sure. Every writing course at West Point, even going into my master's program, which was a whole lot of writing, every course after that, I was always the best writer. Now I might not have had all the information right in them history classes. Some of them papers, you know, that had some of that stuff mixed up in history a little bit, but but boy, the way I wrote it was was on point. So so it's it's it was a foundation, you know?

Lawrence Scott:16:55

And and to that point about the way that we respond, I think sometimes I heard I heard one person say it like this, you have to fall out of love with the story you're telling yourself. It's good. Because because the story is where we're now so like if somebody does a thing, right, like a betrayal or whatever, betrayal is so strong that it fractures so many of the basic emotional needs that we all have. And this is why I think hopefully, we get a chance to talk about this. This is why I think it's important for leaders to understand the concept and makeup of the soul.

Lawrence Scott:17:28

Betrayal fractures so many of the basic emotional needs that we all have. Security, affirmation, acceptance. These are these are some of the most basic emotional needs that we all have as human beings, and betrayal fractures so many of them. This is why betrayal is so strong. Now here's here's what happens though.

Lawrence Scott:17:47

Right? When when we experience betrayal, the telling of the story helps to affirm our positioning in the events that took place. Right?

Ralph Owens:17:59

Makes sense.

Lawrence Scott:17:59

That says I was wronged by someone who was wrong and I was right. So it was like the story becomes the the place where I'm getting affirmation. The story becomes the place where I'm getting the security. The story becomes the place where I'm getting acceptance. Why?

Lawrence Scott:18:16

Because every time I tell it, somebody says, man, that shouldn't have happened to you. So it's like, man. So now I get that hit every time I tell the story. And and this is why he said you have to fall out of love with the story that you tell yourself. Because the story now is not only is it comforting you because you're telling it over and over and over again, I think that there's some value there in the restoration process.

Lawrence Scott:18:38

Right? To be able to tell the story, vocalize what happened so that you can process it. However, it cannot be the place that keeps you stuck to that space and time. Yes. Because it's

Terry Baylor:18:49

It's not your altar, basically. Don't build an altar there.

Lawrence Scott:18:52

Mm-mm. You can't stay there. You cannot stay don't don't build a tent at the story. Right. Exactly.

Lawrence Scott:19:00

It's like, it happened. Yes. Don't build a tent there. As a matter of fact, collect your materials and keep moving.

Ralph Owens:19:07

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love I love the way you voiced that because you're saying, we're not saying ignore or act like it didn't happen. You have you're a human being.

Ralph Owens:19:16

You have to process. Just understand that there's a beginning and an end

Lawrence Scott:19:20

to that and you move on. And you move on. So absolutely what you just said is key and you said this, you said, and that's what makes you a leader. Like, it's it's I am not going to allow what someone else did to prevent me from doing what I'm supposed to do.

Terry Baylor:19:42

Oh.

Lawrence Scott:19:43

It might Yes. It it might have hurt me. It might have see, there's a difference between you being injured and you being incapacitated. So true. So true.

Lawrence Scott:19:57

Injury might hurt. I might walk with a limp for a while. Mhmm. But I'm still moving. That's right.

Lawrence Scott:20:05

But sometimes we can treat an injury as an incapacitation where we can't move. And sometimes there are certain hurts and betrayals where maybe you don't move for a while. Mhmm. You heal. Right?

Lawrence Scott:20:19

So the book the book that I wrote for some of my athletes, because when I was working with them, they they were dealing with so much. Right? I called it bleed a while. And the reason I called it bleed a while is because it comes from this this chant that from a from an admiral speech that says, hey, listen, we will fight until we can't fight anymore. And when and he's like, not if, but when we can't fight anymore, we're gonna lie down.

Lawrence Scott:20:43

We're gonna bleed a while. Then we're gonna get up and fight some more. So he's like, I'm gonna fight till I can't fight anymore. And when I can't fight anymore, I'm gonna lie down. I'm gonna bleed a while.

Lawrence Scott:20:58

I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna fight some more. In life, you will get knocked down. You will bleed. Yes, sir. But are you willing to do what it takes to lie down and bleed a while?

Lawrence Scott:21:10

That's right. Everybody will have to bleed a while. Yeah. But what happens while you bleed? You can either let yourself bleed out and die right where that injury took place, or you can allow the bleeding to do what it's supposed to do.

Lawrence Scott:21:28

Because bleeding is supposed to provide clots to stop the bleeding. Bleeding is supposed to help to place scars where That's cuts good. That you can get up and fight some more. A lot of people will allow the cuts of life and the injuries from life from people that they trusted or from leaders that they thought would help them move ahead in life to keep them incapacitated. But what helps you to move forward into your areas of influence and authority that you've been created to occupy in this earth is your ability to get up and fight some more.

Lawrence Scott:22:02

So what do you have to do? You have to bleed a while. So we get that. Alright? What?

Lawrence Scott:22:06

You have to remember why. I remember there was a there was a a a group in Nigeria. They wanted me to talk to their students about resilience. And I remember in my prep, I was talking I was doing all of this prep to do this speech on resilience. And then I just paused, Ralph.

Lawrence Scott:22:21

I said, this doesn't make sense. Why would I teach someone on how to be resilient? Who's Ben? Well, not only that, Terry, but I won't teach you on how to be resilient without first giving you a reason to be resilient. To

Terry Baylor:22:39

be resilient.

Ralph Owens:22:40

That's Paltz.

Lawrence Scott:22:41

Resilience requires a reason.

Ralph Owens:22:43

Yes. A why?

Terry Baylor:22:44

Yes, Why should I get back up?

Ralph Owens:22:46

Yeah.

Lawrence Scott:22:46

Why would I get back up? Especially if I'm gonna go back out into a world that's gonna continue to try to put me down. Especially if I'm gonna go back into the world and experience more of those same professors who try to tell me that I'm not good at something that I am good at. Especially if I'm gonna go back into a world that doesn't wanna see me be successful. Especially if I have to go back into a workplace with a leader who I know is only using me for what I can do for them and not what I'm actually good at

Terry Baylor:23:08

so Preaching that now, be bro. If I preach, Why in

Lawrence Scott:23:11

a world would I go back into a world like, why would I be resilient if I know I'm gonna go back into that? Yes. The reason that you become resilient is when you have a deep sense of who you are Yes. That there's a child on this side of you Yes. And why you exist.

Lawrence Scott:23:28

There's no reason, like, why? It's illogical. Humans are like water. We follow the path of least resistance unless we have a reason not to. So we have to get well acquainted with the reason to be resilient.

Lawrence Scott:23:44

So I'm not gonna teach you to be resilient if I haven't first given you a reason to do that.

Terry Baylor:23:48

So I think this is a great transition into your topic of the soul of leadership, right? Because ultimately that why is connecting to our God given dream, our God given purpose. And ultimately that is the only why that has enough power, essence, vigor to after bleeding a while, you know what? I got a God given dream.

Lawrence Scott:24:18

I gotta get up. I gotta get up. So my mentor says it like this, sometimes you have to learn yourself well enough to hack yourself. You don't have some things you don't need to change, you just need to alter. What he means by that is, you might be afraid of quitting that job because it's the pay is so good.

Lawrence Scott:24:37

But maybe we don't get rid of that fear of quitting the job. Maybe we replace the fear with a greater one. It's not what happens if I quit. It's what happens if I don't. I said I shared this with a friend of mine and I said, I'm afraid of who I become if I I know I need to do.

Lawrence Scott:24:59

That's good. I'm gonna become resentful. I'm gonna become offended, bitter. I'm gonna like, I don't wanna I don't wanna become that. Because I don't wanna become that and I don't wanna know what the world looks like through those kinds of eyes, then I must do what's on the inside of me to do.

Lawrence Scott:25:19

Now and this is this is this is where I believe leaders get the most out of people.

Ralph Owens:25:24

That's a wrap on this episode of the Leadership Sovereignty Podcast. If today's conversation added value, I want you to do three things right now. Number one, subscribe so you never miss an episode. Number two, leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. It only takes sixty seconds, but it really helps more leaders find the show.

Ralph Owens:25:44

And number three, share this episode with someone who's on the rise in their career. Don't forget to connect with us on LinkedIn and visit Leadership Sovereignty dot com for show notes and the full episode back catalog. Until the next time, continue to lead boldly, lead with purpose, and walk in sovereignty. Take care.